Kevin: 0:00

This is just a podcaster moment, I was running, listening to a podcast and you know, sometimes like, it's a podcast thing, especially like if you're listening to old school podcaster and I was at the time, how, like, when they say something good or whatever, they'll ding the bell. No. Right? You know, this is like a podcast thing like old school podcasters. Like the people who are just starting out in podcasting, they used to, like, have a bell

Alban: 0:20

Jordan have you heard of this?

Kevin: 0:21

Like, when you got a hotel, the little silver bell that's sitting on the desk, they'd put one of those on their desk. And like, if you said something good, like, that's like how they'd give you like applause on the show, like thinking that's so weird. Yeah, it's a podcast thing. I don't think this was a thing. It was a thing. And it still is a thing for people who are old Thanks for the applause, dude. school podcasters, they still keep the bell around. Anyway, I'm listening to one of these old school podcasts of recent episodes. They're still going and they ding the bell sometimes. And so I'm jogging down sidewalk, and I'm listening the show, and they're just talking. And then there's bells, ding, ding, ding. And I'm like, That's a weird moment to think the bell, keep running. Ding, ding, ding. Like, why do they keep dinging the bell? Then somebody goes on your left, and I turned left, and there's a bike behind me. And he's ringing his bell. He's like, trying to get me out of the way. I totally thought it was in my podcast.

Jordan: 1:16

So Alban, last week, you went to Hot Pod Summit in New York City. It seemed like a really great conference. From my view on social media. I was seeing it all over the place. So I'm really interested to hear about your experience with it. Like what were some highlights?

Alban: 1:30

Hot Pod's a different conference. So most of the conferences we go to are focused on creators. They're focused on the people who actually create shows, mostly longtail shows, you know, not the NPR of the world, but people who have other jobs. And I think like Hot pod felt like lots of producers, lots of industry insiders, lots of people that like when someone says, What do you do for a living, they have to say podcasting. Like that's their full thing. So it's a different conference than we've normally done. And this is the first time we've ever gone. So I can't relate it to other years. But there's some announcements, I had to meet lots of cool people I met Nilay Patel, the host of Decoder, who last episode, I had to cut off from my podcast feed, right?

Jordan: 2:16

Yeah, I was gonna say like, that was probably like a huge moment for you. Because you know, it was revealed last episode, that Decoder is one of your favorite podcasts.

Kevin: 2:24

So did you open the conversation with that? Hey, I just deleted you.

Alban: 2:29

that that is something for me to work on.

Kevin: 2:36

Do you just start revealing all this stuff you know about them way too soon?

Alban: 2:40

I'll be honest, Kevin, that does come into my brain. Not to like a great extent, but like we've met listeners of this show. I know on the other side, like it is a little bit unnerving to know, oh, these people know about stuff we talked about. And then you're like, what did I accidentally reveal over hundreds of episodes? Then all of a sudden, on the other side? I'm like, Oh, I love the podcast. And I think you do a great job with this. And let me tell you about this. And they're like, Okay.

Jordan: 3:09

Yeah, I feel like I'm like slowly working up to go say hi to Payne Lindsey at podcast moment, because he was at Podcast Movement in Dallas, and I was too scared to go say hi, because I'm a really big fan. And I know he's gonna be at Podcast Movement Evolutions. So I gotta I gotta work up to it. I feel it.

Alban: 3:25

I think part of it is like, I think they just want to be treated like normal people.

Kevin: 3:29

No, I disagree. No. I think they want to be treated like super celebrities.

Jordan: 3:34

No

Kevin: 3:35

Yeah, that's what they want.

Jordan: 3:36

They want you to fangirl.

Kevin: 3:39

I mean, they're podcasters. Nobody treats him like somebody. Nobody recognizes him in a restaurant. So I think just to give them that experience for once in their life.

Jordan: 3:46

Oh, my gosh, you're right. Like that would be so cool.

Alban: 3:49

Do you think that would be cool?

Jordan: 3:50

Yeah.

Alban: 3:51

If somebody came up to you at like a Chili's. And they're like, oh, my gosh, Jordan,I've been listening to you for years.

Jordan: 3:57

I'd never be at a Chili's. But if I was in like the VIP section of-

Kevin: 4:04

Yeah, and somebody pushes the velvet rope aside and forces their way to you.

Jordan: 4:08

No, but if someone like came up in like, let's say, I was at like, the mall or something, and someone's like, Oh, hey, you're Jordan. Like, I love this podcast, or I love whatever, I would be pumped.

Alban: 4:19

I think I would be like, a little bit surprised. It would be like,

Kevin: 4:24

Yeah, but surprised in the best way. Yeah, this is what podcasters want. They want to connect with their fans, and they never get a chance to do it true.

Alban: 4:30

Well, I can tell you, from my experience, nobody wants to connect to me as a fan. When I show up as the fan and I'm like, I love your show. They're like red flag, like get this guy away. That has been my experience. I've had now two of those. So

Kevin: 4:45

That might just be how you feel because you didn't go all in with it. Like if you have you have to rush them you have to be like, sweating and you have to be very nervous. You have to like demand a selfie and lots of hugs and just go nuts and then you've got to pull other people in. Look, look, do you see who this is?

Alban: 5:00

Do you want to know an interesting story I learned Yeah, but that's an extreme example. But I do think it could yesterday about fans in like the 70s, like late 70s. Stephen King is now a best selling author, but still, like small enough be a goal of yours that if you meet the podcasts, or that you'd that he doesn't have a security detail. And he like walks out of this late night show. And all these people are there to see him and like, one guy's like, I got to get a photo, I gotta get a photo. And he's like, looks kind of nuts. Nuts enough that Stephen King remembers it years later, and he writes it down. You know, Hey, from Steven to Mark. And it was weird enough that he remembered his name was Mark Chapman. And then like, six, seven years later, John Lennon was killed by Mark Chapman after getting his signature. And then so that ends up being when Stephen King is like, I'm going to write a book about an author who gets kidnapped by one of his fans. So after I had this weird experience, where I feel like I came off a little bit weird, then I'm like, looking at stories of authors that pay us that I'm like, yeah, that's, that's no, that's how I see fandom. So I feel like I'm a bit wary about their rushing, Kevin. like that after your interaction, it's so memorable, that they have to write your name down.

Jordan: 6:13

Like, look out for them.

Alban: 6:20

If they're writing it down, like, oh, this person's a good person to go chat with, that'd be great.

Kevin: 6:25

I don't think we need to get into why they're writing it down as long as they write it down.

Alban: 6:30

Be like, Hey, add this person to the like, Do not contact list like see if we can make sure we get a restraining order set up. Anyway, so it was a good conference. And the big moment for the event, at least for me was so in the afternoon, there's going to be a talk about do you need to make video for your podcast? And then like the talk right before it is, hey, it's gonna be a conversation with chi Chao, head of YouTube, podcasting, and Steve McClendon, who's the podcast product at Google. So kind of the Google side and the YouTube side, and they get up and they're like, Okay, so I guess we'll make an announcement. The announcement is that podcasts are coming to YouTube music in like, a couple of weeks. Okay, let's chat about that. And then they just started telling us all sorts of plans about what's going to happen. And I was like, Man, I would love to be the person who's about to moderate this talk about video podcasting, because the interest levels just went through the roof.

Jordan: 7:28

It was a big deal. I mean, it just kind of like blew up on Twitter and on the like new spaces and stuff like that, because it's not like the other announcements that YouTube has made where it's like, yeah, like video podcasting, video podcasting, because they leaned more into possibly supporting like RSS and all these things that we were like, Oh, please, please YouTube, do this.

Alban: 7:48

I mean, have gone to like multiple of these YouTube announcement talk. I mean, not announcement, because every time it seems like there's gonna be an announcement, and then I go, and they're interviewing somebody who has a podcast on YouTube. And they're basically asking them, What do you love about YouTube, and then they run through the comments section is awesome. And there's like seven ways to monetize on YouTube. And people love seeing the video. And it's interesting, because then people go and they listen to it and audio. And like, I heard this at podcast move evolutions, I went to a version of this in London at the podcast show, we went to Podcast Movement, and they had a similar talk. And, you know, most of them kind of felt like, we're not ready to say anything. And this is a real announcement. So YouTube music is like a separate app to listen to music. And when podcasts come now, it's gonna be an audio first experience. There'll be background listening. So you can like lock your phone and still listen to podcasts, library controls. And at some point, though, I'm not sure how far out this is. Their goal is to have a unified experience. So Jordan, remember when we went to Podcast Movement, and somebody talked about like, oh, you know, I always tell people, if they're watching, make sure you subscribe to the podcast and Kai, Chuck, like, interrupts he's like, yeah, that's not that's great. Like, I don't love that we're doing that, that people have to run off to Apple and Spotify to listen. Well, their goal now is we want to have a unified experience where someone might start watching a video, and then you drive into work, and you like, listen to it. And then you watch maybe your lunch break, and then you finish on drive home, like it's kind of a back and forth experience, kind of similar to what Spotify is trying to do now.

Kevin: 9:29

So are you saying that all the content that will be available on YouTube music will also be available on YouTube

Alban: 9:34

I did not understand that for sure. Because they said the proper? Yeah, if YouTube sticks with what they've done in the past, announcement is, is coming to YouTube music. But then when they talk about a unified experience, they talked about a lot of stuff focusing on YouTube. It sounded like there so you have to reach a certain level of engagement before you is going to be stuff on YouTube as well. So I didn't get 100% qualify for monetization. But that doesn't necessarily mean clarification there. They did mention that they're looking at that they don't monetize you before them, they just don't pay ways to support RSS. So this was Steve Mclendon, and he said you anything. Right, they might still put ads or other stuff, initially, they're going to try to use RSS to bring shows into you're just not going to get a share of it until you reach a YouTube. So that would be really good. If we're trying to help everybody on Buzzsprout get in, does sound like there's some plans for that, though, those seem further away than this YouTube Music announcement, there's audio ads that are going to be coming to YouTube and podcasts on YouTube music. So they said they paid out, I think$50 billion over the last three years to creators. So it'll be very cool. If we can see some of that money start flowing to the audio content. certain level of engagement. And then they'll start sharing revenue with you. Yeah, those numbers feel a bit easier when we're talking about like podcasts versus video. So I forget now what the exact number was on YouTube is like, we had like 1000 subscribers and like 4000 hours of watch time.

Kevin: 11:04

I think it was 4000 hours of watch time. And it might have been in a certain period of time two or 3000 subscribers, that's back when we're okay.

Alban: 11:12

So it was an "or".

Kevin: 11:13

Yeah, it was an "or".

Alban: 11:14

Well, listen time is so much higher, when we do the same piece of content we have as a YouTube video. And as a podcast. And people who listen to the podcast, they're listening for 40 minutes plus, sometimes, you know, pretty standard, they're we're getting really long listen times. And if that's the case, then I could see it'd be much easier getting to that amount of engagement. So whatever that engagement number is 5000 out 4000 hours and you know, three month period, or whatever it is, I think that'll be quite a bit easier to hit if they use a similar metric. Now, it may be different because ad load on five minute videos on YouTube is a little bit easier to stick two ads in front of it. But if you did two ads every five minutes on a podcast like that would be way too intense.

Jordan: 11:57

I wonder what their plan is for that. Like if they're going to make adjustments for podcasts.

Alban: 12:02

And they have to have the ads too. Yeah, like I'm not sure if there's enough ads right now enough people are trying to run ads that YouTube could say, Hey, we've every podcast and anybody that watches them on YouTube, we're going to stick to ads every five minutes. And don't worry, we have like unlimited Hello Fresh and like better help ads and they're just gonna keep flowing in.

Jordan: 12:22

Oh, that would suck. Man, thinking about that though with like, having host read ads you know, as that are like baked in to a podcast. And on top of that you have like YouTube ads. Ah, it sounds like a nightmare. I don't know why people listen on YouTube.

Kevin: 12:37

Yeah, that's the weird thing, right is like right now all the content that's on YouTube, you have no choice but to either pay YouTube to get YouTube premium to get rid of the ads, or you put up with the ads, because that contents not available anywhere else. It's like everything that's on YouTube is exclusive. But in the podcast world that's different, especially if they do RSS ingestion. Like you will have the option of going listening on Apple podcasts or Spotify, or any third party independent podcast player. And you'll get the same content without an ad. I Spotify is a little different. They might put some ads, you know, pre and post, but they're definitely not putting them in the middle of podcast episodes. I don't know what YouTube's plan is around that. But I'm sure they're sensitive to that. Like, obviously, if the ad load is too high, you might find something that you'd like there or use their discoverability features to find new shows. But then you probably move off platform pretty quickly, which exactly what Kai said is like, we do not want them to move on platform.

Jordan: 13:24

I kind of wonder if that is what they're going to do. Because YouTube announced that there are some creators that are able to designate their videos as podcasts like they're integrating a podcast tab onto the YouTube channel. And some creators are being selected to be able to experiment with this right now. And so if you can designate certain, like videos or audio or something like that, as a podcast, I wonder if that's gonna kind of flag it in the YouTube system. Like don't put ads in the middle of this.

Alban: 13:55

So one thing, they did talk about that experiment a little bit. So it sounds like they're doing two things. I mean, their flat gang playlists as a podcast, and then they're using that to populate this slash podcast page, YouTube slash podcast page. I've seen a lot of our stuff show up there. So they're definitely associating us with podcasting. So no more like tutorial videos that were showing up there on the podcast page. Yeah. And then there was also some content. You know, it was like some Buzzsprout conversation. So those were true. You know, I would say it was podcasting content, like those are actual podcast interviews. So they're pulling that in. And they said, they're running that experiment so that they could get better at designating videos as podcasts like which ones are podcasts which aren't. So there might be also some decision around like, hey, when do we put in ads or not? But they're definitely trying to help recommend like people who are listening to podcasts on YouTube or watching podcasts on YouTube, they will start getting more of that type of content.

Kevin: 14:54

So Alban, did they talk at all about like, what they're going to do with stats and stuff? Because it sounds like even if they do RSS ingest They're going to be re-hosting, right. So like on the Buzzsprout side, we wouldn't see those plays, where they give us a way to bring some of those in to Buzzsprout to display in the stats dashboard, or they want just people to log into their YouTube dashboard to see that

Alban: 15:12

So I don't remember if it was Kai, or Steve that said stuff. this, but they started running through all the stats that I guess they were thinking about. So we're basically like, hey, it's everything that said, YouTube studio, how many plays? Where did those plays come from demographic data play through data? So you can see like, drop off points? What features inside of YouTube? Are people using to find your content? What language are people using, you know, or listening? I guess that's really only for video where they're transcribing and then translating on the fly. But basically everything that's in the YouTube studio, the short name and all that stuff. And then they were like, and what other steps would people want? And I was like, like, those are the stats. You know, for years, all that we're getting on the podcasting side are the user agent and the IP address. And so we kind of figure out stuff about the displays, but we don't get to know play through data. And we don't get to know demographic data. The benefit with Google is this is all first party data for them because you're logged into an account, and you've given them a credit card, so they know who you are. You've already shared all that with them. So they're able to say like, oh, yeah, this is a 36 year old male. Okay, interesting. And they can share that over to you.

Jordan: 16:20

So with Google podcasts, I know that recently, like it had disappeared, and then it came back. And so I'm not sure if YouTube Music is going to be replacing Google podcasts, or is that staying in there? Did they talk about that at all?

Alban: 16:33

I feel like the fact that Steve was on stage. You know, he answered that question. I mean, just as a traditional podcatcher, I like that they're using the formal name podcatcher. Instead, it's a it is a traditional podcatcher. And it serves a different audience. So it's still there. You know, they killed off Google Play a long time ago, Google Play music, podcasts, and then they made Google podcasts, they're not just going to drop this and now go over to YouTube music. So it sounds like both of those will still be alive. And one thing that's kind of interesting for us, in particular, as people who have a YouTube channel, there was a period where we were uploading video versions of Buzzcast, to our YouTube channel, we're uploading all sorts of different content. And we talked to somebody who, you know, knew a lot about YouTube was like, you're probably confusing the algorithm a bit with all these different content types. So split it up into channels. And so you'll notice like a lot of really big creators have tons of different channels. One thing they said was, there is a possibility someday that your YouTube channel could have like a podcast tab. So that'd be kind of a cool thing to do. Like you go see your biggest creators, the ones that you really enjoy. And then you know, videos and shorts. And now there's also tablets. And if you want to listen to or watch a long podcast, here it is.

Jordan: 17:53

When I was looking into the beta testing of the, you know, assigning new podcasts like in your YouTube studio, when I was looking into that, it sounded like a channel could have multiple different podcast tabs from what they were saying, which that would be really cool too. Like, one channel could have multiple podcasts assigned to it.

Alban: 18:14

That'd be interesting. Yeah, I didn't, I didn't hear them say anything about that. But I would trust all the stuff that you're reading, probably more than I would trust my memory of this.

Jordan: 18:23

But you're trusting my memory of me reading it.

Kevin: 18:27

I'm wondering about all these services that exist out there, like Headliner being probably one of the biggest ones that were a big part of the service that they offer is to take an audio file, create a video out of it, and then push it to YouTube? Is this a deathblow for somebody like headliner?

Alban: 18:39

I don't know. I mean, I think there's some podcasts that are going to be in YouTube music in like a few weeks. And so my guess is those are ones that are already have like a video component on YouTube proper. And so I'm thinking of like the Huberman lab, or something, that everything is already there.

Kevin: 18:59

Well, when you say everything is already there, you mean, there is a video version of that?

Alban: 19:02

Correct.

Kevin: 19:03

But there's not like an audio only version. And I'm not familiar with YouTube music. So like, in YouTube music is there, I heard that there's like a toggle, where, like, if there's a music video associated with it, you can like toggle the video on and off, but like,

Alban: 19:15

I've never used YouTube music. Maybe I should have done that as some prep. But yeah, I've never used it. I wonder if I have access? Because I pay for YouTube itself, like YouTube premium. So I don't watch the ads.

Kevin: 19:27

Yeah, my understanding. And maybe we shouldn't even be saying this since I don't know. It's, it's in fact, because I haven't used it either.

Alban: 19:33

This is a podcast, you're allowed to like only be 80% right. I think that's allowed.

Kevin: 19:38

We'll operate in that window of grace. But my understanding is that there's a toggle to flip back and forth between if there's video associated, I want to see it and I can turn it off if I'm like driving in my car or something or I'm operating in lock screen mode. And so I think a lot of the music that's on there. They do have like a video version of that same song, but by default, it's like a music first. It's an audio first experience and then you have to do something to it. want the video to pop up? And so when you say like Huberman lab already has everything that exists, but I don't know if they're separate files, or if YouTube would just take that video and just play the audio track only, I don't know how that how that all comes together. But I guess that's what we're gonna have to wait and see.

Alban: 20:13

This just sounds like kind of like a technical problem for Google to figure out. What do you think they're doing? If I'm watching a video on YouTube, and I locked my screen? Am I still downloading that full big video? And it's my phone's just utilizing the audio? Or is it actually flipping it to a different file?

Kevin: 20:30

I don't know. But I would assume that somebody that scale of YouTube would have figured out a way to switch the stream. Because that's a big chunk of bandwidth that's not necessary at that point. And I know they already automatically up and down sample the video quality depending on your connection speed, right? So if you're already doing that, it's very similar technology to be able to, oh, I turned off the stream. I don't need this part of the data anymore. Just start sending me the audio stream. Yeah, that makes sense. Well, we will see, we will see, I mean, it sounds like anytime a big player enters the industry, the most optimistic view is that they're going to introduce new people, to podcasts. And that's always a good thing. And so that happened with Spotify, despite the fact that we do talk about from time to time some things that Spotify are doing that we don't love. And no one will argue the benefit that they brought to podcasting overall, which they introduced a lot more people to podcasting and and so, optimistically I hope YouTube can do the same thing. And make a lot more people, fans of podcasts and listeners, who knows where those people choose to listen, whether they stick with listening on YouTube, or they move off to another app, as long as they're listening. Ultimately, that's, that's the goal. Like we're creating content we're putting out in the world, and we want people to listen to it and benefit from it, whether it's learning or entertainment or whatever. And also as podcasters, we have control. So if YouTube starts doing something with our content that we don't love, we don't have to put our content there. And so podcasting is great, and it's gonna continue to thrive. And this hopefully, is just another way to get more people excited about podcasts.

Jordan: 21:58

We released on YouTube, a video of Buzzsprout conversation between Alban and Ross from the Smells Like Humans podcast, and this is such a great conversation. So we're going to be dropping it as a bonus episode in the Buzzcast feed this week.

Ross: 22:16

I feel like it's a pretty lonely performance medium, because you don't get any feedback, you have no audience reaction, and my whole life has been geared toward reading the audience. Is this working? Is this not working as a podcast? Other than seeing what downloads you get? You don't really know if people like it? You know, it's it's kind of it's kind of weirdly isolating in a way. And I wish I wish there was more of that feedback. So that feedback whenever I get it keeps me going. That's the only thing right now. Well, that and the millions of dollars I'm making? Did we? Was I supposed to mention that? Yeah.

Jordan: 22:56

There was so many things in this conversation that I thought were just of such value, especially how Ross talked a lot about how isolated podcasting can feel. And there were all these themes that he talked about with like isolation or, you know, speaking into like a void, and it was so funny hearing him talk about that, because I was just like, wow, I've been in that exact place, I've felt that exact thing. If I don't get feedback from people, even with like, however many downloads, it just feels so lonely to be a podcast, or sometimes, which I think is kind of a unifying thing. And it makes you feel less lonely. When you hear people talk about that.

Kevin: 23:33

Yeah. And it's hard to connect with your audience. I mean, we've we've been running experiments lately, with starting Twitter threads. For every episode, we put this value for value lightning payment system into Buzzcast. So that people can send us booths and interact with us that way, we've asked people to email us and it's pretty easy to know how to email us because if you don't know the email address for the show, you can always email support@buzzsprout.com. And it'll get to us. And so even with all those avenues of connecting with our audience, it does still feel lonely sometimes, like, that's why we get so excited when we go to a conference. And people come up and they say, Hey, I listen to your show. And this was great, and yada, yada. That is hard, especially like for most podcasters that don't get to attend conferences. And if they do attend a conference or just walking around with a name badge, they don't have a booth that people can come find them. A lot of people don't have Twitter threads, some people are not into the lightning stuff, or their audience isn't like bleeding edge tech enough to even use it if they did it. So it can be hard. And I think it's something that we need to just remember like as podcasters it's there's nothing wrong with you. There's nothing broken about how you're doing it. It says this is something that we all struggle with as podcasters and any avenue that you have, with, like, however you interact with people online, whether it be primarily email, if there's a special social channel that you'd like, whether it be Instagram, or Tiktok, or Facebook, or Twitter or whichever one, like pointing people to that. Yeah, I feel for him, it can't be lonely and that that did strike a chord with me as well.

Alban: 24:54

Yeah, I mean, we've tried a lot of stuff to get more interaction with people who listen to this podcast and I I always really enjoy it like no matter, especially when just kind of somebody who's new, you know, we have kind of like our five people who always send us a boost every week. And so we've got a little community there. And then when we started posting on Twitter, there was like a whole new group of people that we'd never engaged with. And then we went to pod fest, we started meeting a bunch of people who we'd never met before, who listened to the show. So there's so many different avenues. But we're in the world of podcasting. And on the whole, like, we have a good listenership a few 1000, that episode or listening, where if you've got a show, that's, you know, maybe only 150, you could be at the numbers where you have one or two reviews on Apple, and you don't really get many emails, and you don't have a sponsor. And there's something emotional about that. Like, there's something you feel emotionally, there's almost like, Is this even real? Like, am I just talking to nobody, you know, I pick up a phone each week, and I make a call and I leave a voicemail, but like, same and listen to the voicemail. And so all those interactions means so much to people, because it's not just your time, and your effort and the value, then all the content, blah, blah, blah. It's also just like, it's an emotional thing that you're doing to like, you're putting yourself out there, and you're sharing your opinions. And we desperately want to know, there's people who find it valuable. And so I always recommend if there's a show you like, reach out to the creators and let them know, don't go across the podcasting conference. But you know, send them in email. My experience has always been that people are very receptive when you do that. Absolutely.

Jordan: 26:34

I mean, it's wild. I know, some podcasters that, you know, they'll they'll get like a couple 100 downloads of their podcast episode. And they just have like a huge community. They have people writing in and interacting with them all the time. And then there's other podcasters, who get like, 10s of 1000s of downloads every episode, and it's crickets. And so it's something that everyone experiences, and no matter how big your podcast is, and I think you alluded to that in the interview Alban, and it was, I felt that very deeply, because on my personal podcast, there's there's so many downloads, but I have the least interactive audience. I don't know, I can even dream of having. Like nobody writes in.

Alban: 27:16

Kind of makes sense, though, right? Most of the people who are listening to your podcast or off a lot of them are people who are like, Alright, I'm winding down for the night, I'm getting ready to go to bed.

Jordan: 27:25

Yeah, it's like once a year that I get an email. And it goes into, I have a little folder in my email inbox and it's just labeled fan mail. And it's like, four emails. And it's just a meaningful thing. And like, when I'm feeling really bad, I'll just read those.

Alban: 27:40

I met somebody this weekend, after Hot Pod, I stayed for this other conference. So this was not a work thing. This was just people who are writing online, and I knew a handful of people's names. So I went, and somebody I met there, she just launched a clothing brand. And she was like, every single comment that was like writing and telling me how awesome the shirt was how much I loved it. She was like, I screenshotted every one of them. Well, and I have so many examples. Like I've saved plenty of these examples for people of creators who are like, I do need the positive affirmation. You know, even if it's a really big show, it's not like egotistical for them to want to hear, yes, this actually lands because during a conversation, I can look and see, oh, somebody enjoys this, or they're not into it anymore. We're podcasting. We don't get that immediate feedback. And so we are really desperate to get it. And I think is part of the audience. Like, that's kind of the deal, right? Like, if we're getting something for free, and we really enjoy it, I think the least we can do is reach out and say, Hey, thumbs up, like, that was a great episode. I really appreciate it.

Jordan: 28:45

I always preferred stage to like film acting. And it's because stage had the instant gratification. You know, I could hear if the audience was laughing, I could hear if audience was like clapping or like really into it and stuff like that. And Ross talks about this too, because he, you know, has experience in theater. And it's so funny because like, I tried doing, like film things like that, and I hated it. Because you do all this work. And then just like nothing, you'd get nothing. And now that I'm thinking about it, like that's so similar to podcasting, where it's similar to film like you do all this work, you put it out and then you don't know how people are gonna react to it.

Kevin: 29:22

Yeah, should be a new feature of like Riverside or Squadcast, it uses AI to detect a joke. And then it automatically inserts like a laugh track behind you.

Jordan: 29:30

It rings a bell

Kevin: 29:32

Rings the bell, get that audience laugh track in there. It'd be great. I would turn that on every time we record. You guys meet make some really good points. I mean, podcasting is a different beast. It's very much consumed, like on demand and like a passive listening experience. And so I think about oftentimes I'm listening to a podcast and I want to contribute to the conversation. So I want to say something like that is a really good point. Or I want to like share a little bit of knowledge that I have about something they're talking about or something but even if they are avenues do that even if they're I know there's a Twitter thread associated with this episode or I know that they're using the boosting system. So I could drop in a comment, I might be in the middle of a run, I might be on a drive. That's usually where I am, when I'm listening to stuff. I'm not sitting at a computer watching something. And so I know there's been a lot of excitement around this possibility of having cross app comments in podcasting. And I do think it's good. I'm not, I'm not saying it won't be. But I don't think it's going to be the same engagement that we see on like YouTube videos, because when you're in, you're engaged in a YouTube video, you're fully engaged. Even if you're watching on your mobile device, it's still your full attention is on that video. And so nobody's Well, hopefully, nobody is watching YouTube videos when you're driving a car. And you might be a passenger in a car, but you have the ability to give it your full attention. Or you're watching it behind a computer so I can drop a comment that's easy to do. And in the podcasting world, regardless of how good the technology becomes, I just don't think it's going to ever have the same level of engagement because we are usually doing other things while we're listening to podcasts.

Alban: 30:55

Yeah, I think that's actually why these video podcasts have been, you know, relatively popular. Remember, that was like the first thing. When Joe Rogan went to Spotify, he was like, Man, I really miss the comment section on YouTube. Because, you know, while most of his plays were happening on the podcast, he wasn't getting feedback on those, but being able to go to that video, and then scroll down. And people were like, Oh, my gosh, what an incredible point where she said this, and you could link to it. And then other people are like going back and forth. And you know, talking about it. There's tons of jokes and stuff, I'm sure that had to be really affirming as a creator to go in and see that, especially if you have a background at comedy. You're used to getting tons of feedback from the audience. And then you go to podcasting. And it's almost zero except for you too. And so I think that was probably really important.

Jordan: 31:48

So I didn't know this. But for the last like five years, NPR has been doing a student podcast challenge in which teachers are able to have their students learn how to create a podcast and submit the podcast to NPR for like a competition. And they have two versions of the competition, like they have a college version. And then they also have grades five through 12. When I was looking into it, I saw that they had created NPR had created a curriculum for teachers and then also created sort of like a learn on your own curriculum for kids. And what's really cool about this is they broke it up into like different lesson plans. And they have like how long these lessons are going to take. So the teachers can integrate teaching, like how to start a podcast into their class day and things like that. So they have like a podcasting overview that takes like 60 minutes, and then they have like choosing a topic and playing the story. And what's really cool, if you look at these is that they have pulled examples, like they tell the teacher, like have the students listen to five minutes of this podcast, and then discuss it. And here's the things that you can discuss. I was looking at this and I was just like, Man, this would actually be really fun to do with my kids.

Kevin: 32:55

Yeah, that's amazing. I think you know, so many, especially high schools have like curriculum around media or video. I mean, they've been doing it since I was in high school, there was like a video class you could take in my high school. So that's like old school, VHS, huge camcorders that we could barely hold on our shoulders. You know, think about how far the technology has come in that time. But I know most schools are doing some sort of video classes. And some of them take it to the extreme where there's like a morning video show every morning that the kids watch when they get into school. And that's like how they do morning announcements. But I've heard very few schools that are actually publishing a podcast. It's something I talked to my kids about doing at their high school. Like there's so many great sports things that you could cover and news around school and upcoming events. So yeah, have like a weekly podcast that you could be doing your school. It's so easy. It's like why are we teaching kids video, like the first step should be like teaching them really good audio production. And then like the, you know, 102 class or the 201 class, could be you move into video if you're interested in doing that. Yeah, and I think it's so much easier. And it can be longer to like those video shows. Since the production value is so high, it's so hard to edit, edit video and everything. You have to cut it all down and fit it into two or three minutes. But like a weekly podcast for what's going on at your school, you could do a full interview with like, you know, the girl who scored you know, this amazing goal at the lacrosse game last week or something. And so she could tell a little bit of her lacrosse journey, or something like I just love giving people the opportunity to learn a skill, learn a little bit about journalism, learn about how like doing a good interview. And podcasting facilitates that so well, so much easier than where all the focus right now seems to be around printing this video productions in high school. So I love that they're putting this together and I hope teachers grab a hold of it.

Jordan: 34:28

I had discovered that NPR has like an NPR training and it's really geared towards like journalism in a video or radio kind of space. And it wasn't like there are some things you can take away for podcasting, certainly. But the thing that was so cool about this curriculum that they created is that you know it is only for podcasting and so they have information in there like how to get good tape. They have information on like how to ask really good interview questions and like how to practice interviewing and things to do before you go to an interview during the interview, and then after the interview, like just steps, they have like a checklist of steps that you need to take to make sure that you get a really good interview. And there's just so many things like that, that are just wonderful to read through.

Alban: 35:11

And you're you're learning from people who have a journalism background, they've a broadcast background, you know, there's a lot of stuff that podcasts he has made so much more accessible. But there are a lot of skills that we really could learn from people who were not classically trained, but were actually trained in interview styles and, you know, actually worked in a real studio. Like there's tons of stuff that amateur podcasters like ourselves that we have not really learned, we may know, like, hey, it doesn't have to be a big deal. Just get a Samsung cue to you. We're very good at taking the barriers down. But you know, somebody who's done 1000s of interviews over the years could tell you, Oh, here's how I warm guests up and get them into a mood to actually talk about something. So they actually talk to Nilay Patel about was about how actually, a lot of Decoder is built around the fact that he's talking to people who always have media training. You know, I've never interviewed somebody who had media training, who was trying to only answer the questions they wanted to. And so I asked her a couple of questions about the show. And he was like, oh, it's pretty much because I know, I'm only getting 20 minutes, and it's super locked in what they're gonna talk about. And so I have to do the intro and do certain questions to like, kind of pull the rest of the story out. But those are things that do not occur to us maybe as a bit more on the hobbyist side of podcasting.

Jordan: 36:32

There was something similar. I actually listened to it quite a while ago, it's called Gimlet Academy and Gimlet did something sort of similar. So I think if you looked at this NPR guide, and then you also were to supplement that with the Gimlet Academy podcast, you know, I think it's like six episodes or something like that. But they go through the process of how they create these documentary style podcasts. And, you know, they go through, like, here's how to pitch a good podcast, here's how you name it. Here's how you get good tape with like interviews and like, we have to make sure that we get these stories. And we go into these interviews with like a punch list of things that we need to have in order to like shape this narrative. And it was also really interesting to listen to that

Alban: 37:17

How the news admits that they shaped the narratives? Yeah, I agree.

Jordan: 37:22

So if you want to look at the NPR guide to student podcasting, they have the curriculum guide for educators and then also the guide for students. I will have links in the show notes. We have some Buzzboosts. First is from Mere Mortals podcast, I'm 100%, nont on Spotify Premium. Any tips for getting access to Adobe Podcast beta? I signed up for it but no dice. Oh, I'm surprised by that.

Alban: 37:48

Yeah, that was actually my experience as well. So I signed up for Adobe Podcast beta, and I didn't get access. I wonder if it's because you guys can see the you use Audition? Did you have to log in with your like Adobe account when you submitted it?

Jordan: 38:02

I did. So maybe that was it. But I didn't have that before. Back when it was project Shasta, they said that they would email me when the beta was ready. And they never did that. So I just assumed it was open to everybody. So I guess it's kind of a correction to last episode when I said that I thought it was available to everybody, because obviously it's not. So maybe if you have an Adobe account, like a paid Adobe account, it expedites the process, but I'm not really sure. Alban, don't you have a paid Adobe account?

Alban: 38:32

I don't think so. Maybe I do. That's not a good sign. Because I don't use it.

Jordan: 38:36

It's expensive too, so. And then he continues. Oh, and did you say transcripts were generated within as well, Jordan? Does this mean you can export them as SRTs? Kyrin. Actually, you cannot generate transcripts within Adobe podcast beta, which is what I thought was really strange because it transcribes the audio for you to edit as a sort of word document format. So the fact that you can't export the transcribed audio as a transcription is very weird to me. So yeah, at this point, no, but hopefully, in the future, you could do that.

Kevin: 39:08

Yeah, that sounds like just something they just didn't get to yet. But that's kind of a no-brainer feature. Right? Yeah. So it'll be out at some point.

Alban: 39:13

And then we've got three boosts from Dave Jones. I actually thought this was super interesting. Do you guys notice the dates? So Dave has his first boost. 13 days ago, two of them, and then one that's 10 days ago? So it's interesting to see that you know, he took a little break.

Kevin: 39:29

Yeah, he couldn't make it through the whole episode.

Alban: 39:33

Yeah I gotta save it for later.

Kevin: 39:34

Got to go like, get some Gatorade or something was wearing them out.

Alban: 39:37

So really love subscriptions. well designed. Great job, guys. Thank you, Dave. Key to keeping your CPA happy. So remember, we had this whole conversation about doing your taxes, and Dave Jones works at a CPA. The key to keeping your CPA happy is to give them all your stuff w 210 99 Five February 15. So they go ahead and create your tax return in their system. And then feed them the rest as you get it, so it makes it easier on them.

Kevin: 40:04

That would have been helpful. I guess he said that about 13 days ago. I missed the deadline.

Alban: 40:08

Yeah, I have as well. Wait, he said to on the deadline. So the deadline Yeah, it didn't give us much chance Dave. And then he's another one. This was 5150 sat so it's real. And he just says Jordan, Don't you dare.

Kevin: 40:24

Yeah, I could not agree more.

Alban: 40:26

I wish we had the time saved here. We could go figure out what do Jordan What do you know what this is?

Jordan: 40:32

I kn ow exactly what this is, because Kevin.

Alban: 40:35

What is it?

Jordan: 40:36

Um, so I don't have the timestamp exactly. But it was when I was talking about the host images on Apple and I had mentioned why do they not just add it? And Kevin said, Don't you dare.

Alban: 40:50

You're like they just have to add it to Apple. And Kevin's like, No, never! So Dave Jones is with him.

Jordan: 40:56

Sorry.

Kevin: 40:58

Yep. And then Moritz from Alby sent 10,000 SATs thank you and so curious about Spotify conspiracy theory doesn't hold up any reports from listeners? Do we know more?

Alban: 41:08

The thing about conspiracy theories is you don't need any data to back it up. You just need a strongly held opinion.

Jordan: 41:15

Yeah, we didn't we didn't get anyone else following up on that. So I think we might have to go back to Kevin's initial plan of like canceling our Spotify subscription to test it out.

Alban: 41:27

I mean, we had the follow up for mere mortals podcast that said that when Kirin actually did listen to the show he wasn't getting a lot of ads and then followed up said yeah, I'm not actually on Spotify Premium Yeah, so that's what the conspiracy theory UFOs confirmed.

Kevin: 41:41

Yeah, I think at the worst it's plausible, but um, it's probably confirmed

Alban: 41:45

Then we had some people reach out on Twitter so remember, we had this whole conversation around Kevin has a another conspiracy theory that maybe the guy who had the cat that played the keyboard that got the you know, they use this on YouTube then made like a Superbowl ad out of it. Kevin's like, well, wouldn't it be terrible if you didn't get money? Money? Yeah, well, Sara rasa who hope we're pronouncing your name correctly, said I bet they did. Schmidt has had a meme manager for years. Then now mean manager for the lights of nine cat Grumpy Cat Ridiculously Photogenic guy. And Success Kid offered help the Creator make the most of his digital fame. So there is no such thing as a meme manager out there. And Sara followed up owning your own IP is important. That's why I love being indie. And in book publishing, and podcasting, and also I love Buzzsprout which makes podcasting so easy. So thank you, Sarah. We appreciate you.

Kevin: 42:41

Yeah, thank you. I did not know meme manager was a job. Like, I gotta make sure my kids don't realize this or they're all gonna want to be a meme manager.

Jordan: 42:49

Yeah, this led me down like a little bit of a rabbit hole. I was reading through it. And then when they were mentioning the memes that he managed, I would go and like look them up, because I couldn't remember exactly who they were because there's like that like no, your meme website. Holy rabbit trail like it was. It was not good. The other thing that that was really interesting from what Sarah link to on the Mashable article is that Keyboard Cat is actually like three cats what or became three cats. Yeah. So you have Fatso, who was the initial one in the video and then in the viral video and then after Fatso, came bento and then now skinny. So he's still making these videos of like Keyboard Cat, but it's different cats.

Alban: 43:33

This is like how the University of Georgia has like had, you know, 12 Ugas because they pass on and then they get a new dog.

Jordan: 43:40

What's an Uga?

Alban: 43:41

Uga is the University of Georgia. UGA. We have a dog named Uga as the mascot.

Kevin: 43:47

Something similar happened at Notre Dame, except leprechauns live much longer than dogs. So they've only had two.

Alban: 43:56

Another piece of feedback from family history drama podcast. Without magic mastering I would be a lost cause a lost cause. There's so much to learn to be a peak performer as a solo podcast or audio tracks productions, equipment, smarts, etc. If I wasn't passionate about my content, I would absolutely hate this learning curve. Thank you so much. Like Kevin said, I love that this is happening in more and more products, the Shasta product from Adobe magic mastering off on a list goes on. I think it's gonna be more and more trying to use AI and algorithms to clean up audio to improve you know, making the learning curve a little bit easier, so that people can share podcasts they're passionate about without devoting so much time to making it really, really easy to use. So glad it's been helpful to you.

Jordan: 44:42

Thanks everyone for the boosts and the feedback and keep podcasting. Yesterday I was doing my like research on like the YouTube podcast pages. And I noticed that YouTube actually has like an entire page dedicated to Live animals cams.

Kevin: 45:01

Yes.

Jordan: 45:01

And I was just so excited. I actually got weepy. I watched otters at the Seattle zoo for like, way too long. And they were just like playing on the screen while I was like working. And it was so cute because they were just like rolling.

Kevin: 45:13

Yeah. So I took this, I saw that same thing. I can't remember where I saw it. But now that you say it, I remember it. And I remember thinking about it. Like, there's this all this to do about YouTube adding a podcast section, and like, how this is such a big thing for the industry. And then a couple of weeks later, I'm like, they also have a whole section dedicated to live animal cams. It's just like, womp womp.

Alban: 45:39

They're all huge, dude. They're all blowin' up.

Kevin: 45:41

But I can't believe that there's no and I like when I heard that I hadn't done I hadn't clicked on it and looked at live animal cams, but like that that is appealing to me in some way. I do want to watch some live animal cams.

Jordan: 45:52

It's really cool. The panda one is like very solid. The panda cam is pretty great.

Alban: 45:57

Jordan reviews animal cams.

Jordan: 45:59

I do! The pandas are very cute. They stick out their tongues a lot, and they get fed bamboo is very cute. And the otters are pretty adorable. And then there's also this animal cam, it's a trail cam and like Denmark, and the guy puts out food and so you get these like cute badgers and foxes all in the camera together. And they're just like scavenging and it's so cute.

Alban: 46:20

Did you guys see this Frod video?

Jordan: 46:22

No.

Alban: 46:23

Okay, so,

Kevin: 46:24

Like there's a lot of fraud videos.

Alban: 46:26

No, no Frod. Oh, F-R-O-D, it's frog misspelled. Okay, so this guy on Tiktok like the top of his fence, like the little insert the cap was missing. And he realized there was a frog living Oh, yeah. And so he went and 3d printed a little house. And he like stuck it on. And he's like, Okay, this is everyone's gonna love this. And he posts on you tick tock. And all he gets is like trashed. Like, yeah, he doesn't like it because he can't get in like, there needs to be steps getting in there. There needs to be like this and this and they start telling them all the stuff that he's like, all right, and he goes, he creates a whole new one that's even more elaborate, puts it up. And then all the comments, go back like, Are you kidding? There's not even a pool! And it's iteration after iteration. He makes this ultra elaborate 3d printed frog paradise on his fence. And then like, there's all these frogs hanging down and they have tadpoles. They've got like possums coming in to drink the frog water. Like, it just kept getting bigger and bigger. And like, I love it so much. Because the guy is engaging with his audience so hard like anything they said. They're just being like, in my opinion, some are. Some are nice, but some are just like trolling. Yeah, it was like, great idea, guys. You won't need to go build that too. It was one of my favorite videos I've seen in a long time.

Jordan: 47:52

That's kind of the magic of like internet. I love it when they embrace the silly.

Alban: 47:56

Yes.

Jordan: 47:56

Just like that's when like magic happens when you stop caring about what people think. And you go like, Yeah, let's do that.

Alban: 48:04

While you're totally engaging your with your audience and taking them seriously. I think a lot of times people are like, I'm the creator, you're the listener, you're the watcher, I'm doing the thing you're not. There's some creators that are like, Yeah, okay, the person who happens to be shooting the video, but we're in this together. Like, of course, there needs to be an infinity pool on this frog's house. Of course, like an idiot. We're not thinking of that.

Kevin: 48:28

But you know, I wonder I saw I saw that first short video, right? I'm thinking the YouTube short or something. I saw the first one. I didn't follow the rabbit trail. So I didn't get all the way to the frog paradise. But I remember thinking when I watched that first one, the little house that he made did not have like an entryway for the frog. There was no hole at the bottom for the frog to get in. And so it makes me think like if he had actually built a better house from day one for the frog, it wouldn't have worked like it probably wouldn't have gotten nearly as far. But it had this like completely obvious flaw. Right? And you wonder if he was intentional about it. I mean, maybe probably not. But maybe like what a genius if he was intentional about it to drive some interaction. But it's almost like if you're doing a podcast episode, and you intentionally like mispronounce a word over and over and over and over again in here and your episode, like you are going to get feedback. Yes, like people someone's gonna write in. And then you can lean into that. And then you can like, correct that word and say, I'm sorry, but then you start saying another word incorrectly or something else. Like, I wonder if there's ways to generate interest and engagement through these, like obvious oversights.

Alban: 49:31

100% So I read an article about this, Kevin.

Kevin: 49:34

Every time I share like an idea, you're always like, Yes, I read something about that. Let's go!

Alban: 49:39

This was so incredible to me. There's this whole, Have you seen this genre content that is like non content, it will always say things like, I can't believe he did that. And there's a video of somebody like walking on the beach, and there's nothing else nothing else happens. And then there's all these people commenting like, this is stupid, nothing happened, but then there's some people who will comment it oh my gosh, it took me like six watches to get it. So then people are watching it.

Kevin: 50:05

Once you see this, you can't unsee yeah,

Alban: 50:07

there's all these versions. And a lot of them, they put something strange in the video. So people are kind of like, Wait, there's something happening here. And like, we have this sense that we have to figure it out. But there's nothing there. It's just the content is the fact that there is no content. And one of the things those videos often have is things intentionally done wrong. So there's a whole genre of them about math problems. And they always hit the math problem wrong. They put together a recipe, and they tell you what to do with the recipe, like four eggs, and then they put in three eggs. And people were like, What the hell like where's the quarterback? Well, they just set you up to dunk on them. But that dunk isn't a dunk like you think you didn't make fun of them. Instead, you engaged with the stupid non content, so that it went viral. And there's a whole genre and

Kevin: 51:00

I think we use a version of that on this show. Oftentimes, we all break into laughter and everyone's like, where's the joke? There's nothing funny.

Alban: 51:06

Yeah, well, that's your laughter button or whatever, ding ding ding!

Kevin: 51:11

My laugh track

Jordan: 51:12

Oh, my gosh. It reminds me of that girl. She went viral on like, Tiktok for redoing logos for brands. Have you seen her? No, she Oh, it's so funny. She is like dead serious. Like she went to like to school for design. And this is how she'd redo the like, this brand's logo and stuff like that. And she went super viral for it. Because like the designs are trash. And it's so funny, because some of these brands have actually embraced it. Like she gets like free stuff from like Microsoft because she redid like the Windows brand. It's like terrible.

Alban: 51:46

I want to check it out. It's like the graphic design is my passion meme.

Kevin: 51:50

Yeah, I love it. So I think we put the challenge out to podcasters like, try to embrace your next episode, try to embrace either, like an obvious error or some non content tactics and like, let's see, let's see if that drives audiences.

Alban: 52:02

I think these non-content tactics are like terrible.

Jordan: 52:05

Don't Don't knock it till you try it. Okay.

Kevin: 52:07

Well, maybe the non content is not a good one. But I like the idea. I like the idea of having an obvious flaw and something that you do that just force it's like so agitating to the people listening that they have to engage with you. And it should be it should be harmless. Like you don't want to like make up rumors or, you know, oh my gosh, think about if you spent like started creating conspiracy theories that had no no merit. That'd be terrible. So don't do that.

Alban: 52:32

No, no, it's dunked on any of your stupid conspiracy theories yet. These people are probably starting to take them seriously.

Kevin: 52:40

That's true. No one has dunked on. Yeah, well give people something to talk about and comment and let's see what happens.